From erlandinjerd at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 20:17:43 2010 From: erlandinjerd at gmail.com (Erland Injerd) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:17:43 -0800 Subject: [oasis-members] Objections to Space Exploration Message-ID: <5e0a2adb1003131717o6e4efa87x919b59b76f376601@mail.gmail.com> The OASIS board has been kicking around some possible objections to space travel / exploration. We'd like to get the entire membership involved -- what would you answer to some of these questions? Below is a list of possible objections (feel free to add your own). You will also see some answers already contributed by various board members (below the respective question). Erland Injerd --- 1.) This is a silly fantasy inspired by dramatic space movies like Star Wars! Robert Gounley: We can agree to disagree about whether it's silly, but Hollywood doesn't spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make a film UNLESS it connects in some fundamental way with a large audience. Many people called "Love Story" a silly fantasy. Most of them didn't choose to be hermits. 2.) You dream big; then you hit the real world. You'll see. Robert Gounley: Only "other people" make a difference. (Of course, they were all told the same things.) 3.) You think you're Captain Kirk! Robert Gounley: Jean-Luc Picard, actually... 4.) Extra-solar space exploration is impossible without warp drive or cryogenics, and no one is going to invent those. Robert Gounley: The solar system is at least big enough for a dozen or so generations -- time enough for future Einstein's to turn understanding of physics inside out. Let's look at warp-drive again when they do. 5.) Why should I care? "I know a family who's lost a son in Afghanistan and is about to lose their house due to foreclosure. And you're telling me that you're spending precious time and energy trying to make a spaceship? Why should they care about space?" 6.) What's your plan? This is huge. How do you get from here to there? (i.e., from where we are now to being a fully space-faring civilization settled on other planets) Robert Gounley: All of us can recommend books that inspired us. I'm partial to "The High Frontier", by Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill. 7.) YOu can't have a warp drive. That's physically impossible! Robert Gounley: ...assuming our understanding of physics is accurate. Before Einstein, the physics of the day would say the same thing about nuclear power. 8.) God doesn't want us to explore outside the solar system. Erland Injerd: From a Judeo-Christian perspective: I adhere to God's original command to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it...." (Gen 1:28a) That includes exploration! I believe that man was designed to explore, to expand our boundaries, to *see* what's over those far blue mountains. If done in a moral way, I believe God likes us to explore and to conquer new territories. Furthermore, the beginning of Genesis speaks of "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," which really covers time, space and matter. That means "fill the earth" refers to all matter in the universe, not just our little blue planet. So, God wants us to fill and subdue the entire universe. Seth Potter: People of faith have gone to space. As Apollo 8 orbited the Moon on Christmas Eve 1968, one of the astronauts (Frank Borman, I think) read the opening verses of the Book of Genesis. 9.) You should be pursuing something that helps humanity, like eliminating poverty. 10.) Building space technology leads to bigger and more powerful military weapons and furthers warmongering. 11.) No one needs space now -- that was a craze of the 60s and 70s. Down with spending money on space! 12.) How does space help the economy? 13.) Spaceships destroy the environment! You're destroying the environment! 14.) If God wanted men in space, he would have enabled us to breath in a vacuum. See (8) above. 15.) You want to do what? I don't understand. 16.) I want to spend my money on a fishing boat. To hell with space! From vkoman at aol.com Mon Mar 15 03:25:38 2010 From: vkoman at aol.com (vkoman) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 00:25:38 -0700 Subject: [oasis-members] Objections to Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <5e0a2adb1003131717o6e4efa87x919b59b76f376601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <891F2FDE.B085.4254.90FB.0FF5F4142D1F@aol.com> Erland, Great start. I think some of the objections may not be held by a large number of people. For example, #8. We may like to believe that people of faith are anti-Space, but seeing that most of the Apollo astronauts were believers and the most moving message from Space was the reading of Genesis on the Apollo 8 mission, I don't think you'll find many reasonable people objecting to space expansion with that one. Some more likely objections are these: 17). Humans are useless as space explorers; let's have more rovers and orbiters! My answer: a human doesn't get stuck in the sand for months at a time. And they can dig deeper faster than any rover can. 18). NASA was unable to stay on the Moon, a mere 3-day trip away. Why should we trust them to go to Mars or anywhere beyond LEO? I wrote my answer to that in Kings of the High Frontier: get NASA the hell out of our way! 19). How can we build robust spacecraft when eco-freaks want us to use solar sails and green fuels instead of atomic power? My answer to #12 is: capturing and refining the platinum, gold, and iron out of an asteroid would pay off the national debt, or at least take a big nip out of it. I'm sure I have more, including my own answers to the ones below, but I'm suffering from Daylight Savings Time conversion... Thanks for the great thinking points! --Victor Koman komansense.com On Mar 13, 2010, at 5:17:43 PM, "Erland Injerd" wrote: From: "Erland Injerd" Subject: [oasis-members] Objections to Space Exploration Date: March 13, 2010 5:17:43 PM PST To: oasis-members at oasis-nss.org The OASIS board has been kicking around some possible objections to space travel / exploration. We'd like to get the entire membership involved -- what would you answer to some of these questions? Below is a list of possible objections (feel free to add your own). You will also see some answers already contributed by various board members (below the respective question). Erland Injerd --- 1.) This is a silly fantasy inspired by dramatic space movies like Star Wars! Robert Gounley: We can agree to disagree about whether it's silly, but Hollywood doesn't spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make a film UNLESS it connects in some fundamental way with a large audience. Many people called "Love Story" a silly fantasy. Most of them didn't choose to be hermits. 2.) You dream big; then you hit the real world. You'll see. Robert Gounley: Only "other people" make a difference. (Of course, they were all told the same things.) 3.) You think you're Captain Kirk! Robert Gounley: Jean-Luc Picard, actually... 4.) Extra-solar space exploration is impossible without warp drive or cryogenics, and no one is going to invent those. Robert Gounley: The solar system is at least big enough for a dozen or so generations -- time enough for future Einstein's to turn understanding of physics inside out. Let's look at warp-drive again when they do. 5.) Why should I care? "I know a family who's lost a son in Afghanistan and is about to lose their house due to foreclosure. And you're telling me that you're spending precious time and energy trying to make a spaceship? Why should they care about space?" 6.) What's your plan? This is huge. How do you get from here to there? (i.e., from where we are now to being a fully space-faring civilization settled on other planets) Robert Gounley: All of us can recommend books that inspired us. I'm partial to "The High Frontier", by Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill. 7.) YOu can't have a warp drive. That's physically impossible! Robert Gounley: ...assuming our understanding of physics is accurate. Before Einstein, the physics of the day would say the same thing about nuclear power. 8.) God doesn't want us to explore outside the solar system. Erland Injerd: From a Judeo-Christian perspective: I adhere to God's original command to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it...." (Gen 1:28a) That includes exploration! I believe that man was designed to explore, to expand our boundaries, to *see* what's over those far blue mountains. If done in a moral way, I believe God likes us to explore and to conquer new territories. Furthermore, the beginning of Genesis speaks of "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," which really covers time, space and matter. That means "fill the earth" refers to all matter in the universe, not just our little blue planet. So, God wants us to fill and subdue the entire universe. Seth Potter: People of faith have gone to space. As Apollo 8 orbited the Moon on Christmas Eve 1968, one of the astronauts (Frank Borman, I think) read the opening verses of the Book of Genesis. 9.) You should be pursuing something that helps humanity, like eliminating poverty. 10.) Building space technology leads to bigger and more powerful military weapons and furthers warmongering. 11.) No one needs space now -- that was a craze of the 60s and 70s. Down with spending money on space! 12.) How does space help the economy? 13.) Spaceships destroy the environment! You're destroying the environment! 14.) If God wanted men in space, he would have enabled us to breath in a vacuum. See (8) above. 15.) You want to do what? I don't understand. 16.) I want to spend my money on a fishing boat. To hell with space! _______________________________________________ OASIS-members mailing list OASIS-members at oasis-nss.org http://oasis-nss.org/mailman/listinfo/oasis-members_oasis-nss.org Visit the above URL to update your email address or subscription options. -- Victor Koman From tom-locke at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 15 20:48:05 2010 From: tom-locke at sbcglobal.net (Thomas Locke) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [oasis-members] Objections to Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <891F2FDE.B085.4254.90FB.0FF5F4142D1F@aol.com> References: <891F2FDE.B085.4254.90FB.0FF5F4142D1F@aol.com> Message-ID: <169146.67761.qm@web81502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To all, I could discuss?a lot of these other points, but for now I'll address #14: 14.) If God wanted men in space, he would have enabled us to breath in a vacuum. Evidently God not only intended us to fly, or he wouldn't have given us wings, but He also intended us to go in space, or he wouldn't have enabled us to breathe in a vacuum.? No, He didn't attach wings to our backs, and neither did He attach Oxygen tanks to our backs.? But He certainly did give us the means to give ourselves wings, or you wouldn't be seeing them in the sky, and He certainly did give us the means to give ourselves the ability to breathe in a vacuum, or our space travellers would have all died of anoxia. Tom Locke ________________________________ From: vkoman To: Erland Injerd ; oasis-members at oasis-nss.org Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 12:25:38 AM Subject: Re: [oasis-members] Objections to Space Exploration Erland, Great start. I think some of the objections may not be held by a large number of people. For example, #8. We may like to believe that people of faith are anti-Space, but seeing that most of the Apollo astronauts were believers and the most moving message from Space was the reading of Genesis on the Apollo 8 mission, I don't think you'll find many reasonable people objecting to space expansion with that one. Some more likely objections are these: 17). Humans are useless as space explorers; let's have more rovers and orbiters! My answer: a human doesn't get stuck in the sand for months at a time. And they can dig deeper faster than any rover can. 18). NASA was unable to stay on the Moon, a mere 3-day trip away. Why should we trust them to go to Mars or anywhere beyond LEO? I wrote my answer to that in Kings of the High Frontier: get NASA the hell out of our way! 19). How can we build robust spacecraft when eco-freaks want us to use solar sails and green fuels instead of atomic power? My answer to #12 is: capturing and refining the platinum, gold, and iron out of an asteroid would pay off the national debt, or at least take a big nip out of it. I'm sure I have more, including my own answers to the ones below, but I'm suffering from Daylight Savings Time conversion... Thanks for the great thinking points! --Victor Koman komansense.com On Mar 13, 2010, at 5:17:43 PM, "Erland Injerd" wrote: From:? "Erland Injerd" Subject:? ? [oasis-members] Objections to Space Exploration Date:? March 13, 2010 5:17:43 PM PST To: oasis-members at oasis-nss.org The OASIS board has been kicking around some possible objections to space travel / exploration. We'd like to get the entire membership involved -- what would you answer to some of these questions? Below is a list of possible objections (feel free to add your own). You will also see some answers already contributed by various board members (below the respective question). Erland Injerd --- 1.) This is a silly fantasy inspired by dramatic space movies like Star Wars! Robert Gounley: We can agree to disagree about whether it's silly, but Hollywood doesn't spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make a film UNLESS it connects in some fundamental way with a large audience. Many people called "Love Story" a silly fantasy. Most of them didn't choose to be hermits. 2.) You dream big; then you hit the real world. You'll see. Robert Gounley: Only "other people" make a difference. (Of course, they were all told the same things.) 3.) You think you're Captain Kirk! Robert Gounley: Jean-Luc Picard, actually... 4.) Extra-solar space exploration is impossible without warp drive or cryogenics, and no one is going to invent those. Robert Gounley: The solar system is at least big enough for a dozen or so generations -- time enough for future Einstein's to turn understanding of physics inside out. Let's look at warp-drive again when they do. 5.) Why should I care? "I know a family who's lost a son in Afghanistan and is about to lose their house due to foreclosure. And you're telling me that you're spending precious time and energy trying to make a spaceship? Why should they care about space?" 6.) What's your plan? This is huge. How do you get from here to there? (i.e., from where we are now to being a fully space-faring civilization settled on other planets) Robert Gounley: All of us can recommend books that inspired us. I'm partial to "The High Frontier", by Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill. 7.) YOu can't have a warp drive. That's physically impossible! Robert Gounley: ...assuming our understanding of physics is accurate. Before Einstein, the physics of the day would say the same thing about nuclear power. 8.) God doesn't want us to explore outside the solar system. Erland Injerd: From a Judeo-Christian perspective: I adhere to God's original command to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it...." (Gen 1:28a) That includes exploration! I believe that man was designed to explore, to expand our boundaries, to *see* what's over those far blue mountains. If done in a moral way, I believe God likes us to explore and to conquer new territories. Furthermore, the beginning of Genesis speaks of "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," which really covers time, space and matter. That means "fill the earth" refers to all matter in the universe, not just our little blue planet. So, God wants us to fill and subdue the entire universe. Seth Potter: People of faith have gone to space. As Apollo 8 orbited the Moon on Christmas Eve 1968, one of the astronauts (Frank Borman, I think) read the opening verses of the Book of Genesis. 9.) You should be pursuing something that helps humanity, like eliminating poverty. 10.) Building space technology leads to bigger and more powerful military weapons and furthers warmongering. 11.) No one needs space now -- that was a craze of the 60s and 70s. Down with spending money on space! 12.) How does space help the economy? 13.) Spaceships destroy the environment! You're destroying the environment! 14.) If God wanted men in space, he would have enabled us to breath in a vacuum. See (8) above. 15.) You want to do what? I don't understand. 16.) I want to spend my money on a fishing boat. To hell with space! _______________________________________________ OASIS-members mailing list OASIS-members at oasis-nss.org http://oasis-nss.org/mailman/listinfo/oasis-members_oasis-nss.org Visit the above URL to update your email address or subscription options. -- Victor Koman _______________________________________________ OASIS-members mailing list OASIS-members at oasis-nss.org http://oasis-nss.org/mailman/listinfo/oasis-members_oasis-nss.org Visit the above URL to update your email address or subscription options. From cewcew at mac.com Thu Mar 18 21:03:14 2010 From: cewcew at mac.com (Craig E. Ward) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:03:14 -0700 Subject: [oasis-members] Fwd: The Innovator's Dilemma and the Emerging Market in CubeSat Launch Services References: Message-ID: <000E75D9-C783-477C-B304-ABABADB7B7F9@mac.com> Forwarding from another list. If someone attends, please write-up the event for the Odyssey. Begin forwarded message: > From: "IEEE E-Notice" > Date: March 18, 2010 1:42:50 PM PDT > Subject: IEEE CLAS: The Innovator's Dilemma and the Emerging Market > in CubeSat Launch Services > > March 24th 2010 Dinner/Presentation by the AIAA of LA. > Dinner RSVP deadline: March 19. > > This month's dinner presenter is Mr. John Garvey, who will > address the relevance of "the Innovator's Dilemma" to the > emerging markets in launch services for very small > spacecraft. As analyzed in the milestone book of the same > name by Harvard Business School professor Clayton M. > Christensen, the Innovator's Dilemma refers to conditions > in which new technologies and innovations disrupt existing > market structures, in the process causing major > difficulties for established business leaders. The growing > number of 1 kg "picosats" and 10 kg "nanosats" represent > just such a potential shift in the space arena, with > momentum building in particular for the CubeSat > configuration standard pioneered by Stanford and Cal Poly > San Luis Obispo. > > Dinner/Presentation: Wednesday, March 24th, 6:30 p.m. ? > 9:00 p.m. 5:30 p.m. ? Event Check-in with Networking > Reception and Cash Bar Manhattan Beach Marriott ? 1400 > Parkview Ave., Manhattan Beach 90266 (Behind the Kinecta > Federal Credit Union, just south of Rosecrans Blvd.) NOTE > LOCATION CHANGE: FREE PARKING on the street OR at BRISTOL > FARMS east of the hotel; HOTEL PARKING for $8 Speaker: > John Garvey ? President/CEO, Garvey Spacecraft Corporation > - > > $35.00 - Event Price Menu choices: Chicken or Vegetarian > $30.00 - AIAA member Price > $25.00 - Active Military and Young Professionals > $25.00 - Educators/Teachers and Students > $15.00 - Student AIAA members (Special Value!!) > $7.50 - Presentation Only ? No Meal > > CANCELLATION POLICY: If you cannot attend, please cancel your > registration within 72 hours of meeting time with > Susan Goldstein at (310) 726-5002 or SusanG at aiaa.org. Otherwise, you > are still obligated to pay for the reserved meal. > Please register for the event on the following site: > http://aiaaladinnermeetingmar2410.eventbrite.com >